Focus wrote:
"FOOTNOTE
** Memory can play tricks. Having only just heard of the sad death of my dear colleague Farkel.. I've looked again at his posts, and saw he had recently claimed to have led the Exodus from H2O to here (as in, he was the first)
Doug was scrupulously honest, as I am, and I therefore know it must have slipped his mind that it was I who had joined and started posting on (what was then) JWD five weeks before he did, and had encouraged the bunch of others to follow me. H2O was busted.
The members' directory here confirms I'm right:
Focus Joined 2/6/2001
Farkel Joined 3/14/2001"
... Words almost fail me, but self obsession are two that come to mind. I've never read anything like that post before..
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/humour/281227/3/Watchtower-to-ban-PUSSIES-July-14-This-is-not-good#5045420
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Don't take Focus too seriously, would be my advice. His opinions on the intelligience, or lack thereof, of posters on JWN are as irrelevant as our opinion of him.
Anyway, you all know what happens when you keep feeding stray cats?...
Just leave the guy to waffle and stop feeding him posts to pick apart with his humongous intellect.
If anyone feels the urge to take him or his insults at all seriously, please take a look at the following thread.
He is talking to an old friend of his who posted to ask where he was, 9 years ago and then 8 years ago!! It wasn't anywhere close to the last thread that his friend posted on either, which would have at least made some sense.. and Unclebruce hasn't posted here for 4 months anyway!
I think we have a very nostalgic person here, longing for the old days and searching for a way to be relevant again. I could be wrong, but I'm just trying to have a little empathy for the old guy.. Not that he wants to generate any empathy ;)
(Read both pages of the thread.)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/2671/1/Updated-list-of-Watchtower-RANKS-not-Classes#.U7QOuV2t-o8 -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
"Post12of16
Joined2/2/2010
When I speak about suffering=bad I am speaking purely in philosophical terms."
Saved JW's not disagreeing, to be fair, he is being an evasive philosopher. Let's see if he/she is brave enough to give a direct reply to the question the thread poses.. -
754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
(Rather than spending the next week riding a philosophical merry-go-round where we end up wondering if our own existence is merely an assertion, or if we are all just butterflies dreaming that we are humans, let's get back to the topic, eh?)
"Because the entire basis of the argument here is this
Suffering = Bad [assertion] God allows suffering; ergo God is bad"
.. SAVEDJW, the purpose of this thread is to give answers to the question 'Why does a Theistic God allow animals to suffer?' .
This question in itself is not an attack on God.. It is not an accusation or necessarily the start of a debate.. It is merely a question.
Whether suffering being bad is an undeniable truth, or merely an assertion, is NOT the topic.
Whether anyone can decide if God's actions are good or bad, when atheists don't believe in a God and thus only have their own thoughts by which to judge good and bad, is also NOT the topic.
Here's the original question for you:
Why does your God (if you are a theist that is) allow animals to suffer? How would you explain it? (Suffering is beneficial, good and necessary for x reason.. He doesn't care.. Because of mans fall from perfection..
these are examples of actual answers to a question, rather than evasions.)
You can avoid the question, or admit you don't know the answer, of course.
Or you can continue to post off-topic about how our feelings and thoughts are irrelevant, as I expect you to based on experience. -
51
Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
David Hume's formulation of the problem of evil in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion:
"[God's] power we allow [is] infinite: Whatever he wills is executed: But neither man nor any other animal are happy: Therefore he does not will their happiness. His wisdom is infinite: He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end: But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge, there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?"
.. I would trust your own idea of what is good and bad than a being that is all powerful and yet does not alleviate anyone's suffering.
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Thank you for explaining and I'm sorry for the sarcasm.
You misread my post slightly, I was talking about people here shouting and jeering at you. Then the following were your own words. The illustration clearly fell flat. Your insults and condascension are completely unnecessary, though. Intelligient people do not need to insult people that do not understand them.
Anyway, let's move on.. -
95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Focus said:"I have done much work, starting where Dr Bergman left off, on the mental illnesses exhibited by jWs - and by ex-jWs, alas, as the concerted baboon-pack attacks illustrate.
Viewing the percentage of adherents or attachees seriously damaged (as objectively defined) by the overall encounter as the metric (i.e., the means of measuring), and restricting one's survey to cults/religions which have (say) more than 10,000 adherents.. the Watchtower Sicksiety is, by far, the very worst of them all."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/281308/1/A-precious-gift-to-all-from-Jehovah-channelled-via-Focus#.U7Kd2l2t-o8
.. In which case, having done so much good work on mental illnesses exhibited by ex-jw's , you should know better than to fling insults at those that do not understand you or react badly. If the majority of us are so mentally handicapped in your view, then fine.
But would you even consider walking into a home for mentally ill people, and calling those who are shouting at or jeering you "doozy-headed, sh!tferbrains doofuses" and "twits"? Would it aid either yourself or them to talk down to them, or insult those who do not understand your way of communicating (or just simply dislike you) ? Empathy is needed.
Just something to think about.
Thank you for listening, O great one. -
68
The problems Bible believers have with Atheists is the burden of proof is on the Believer and we just do not have enough proof.
by booker-t ini recently posted a post telling this board my athesit coworker stumped me with questions about the validity of the ark story and i just cannot stop talking to her.
i love hearing her side and point of view which in the past i would have dismissed as "satanic" thinking.
she has some very good questions and i am having a hard time answering them.
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defender of truth
Sorry it's off topic, but this is bothering me and I can't get it out of my head. Was my post at the bottom of page 2 insulting or offensive to anyone?It was just my musing on how people think and the possible effect of taking Bible stories literally. I wholeheartedly apologise if anyone thought I meant all Bible believers are insensitive to suffering.
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51
Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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defender of truth
HeyThere said:"Oh, and why all the dang animal offerings? Why would a bird have to die for mold in your house or a period...or sex? Sheesh"
You might find these interesting..
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/how-many-animals-has-god-killed.html
....
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/222352/1/Theists-why-does-God-allow-suffering#.U7JmCV2t-o8